Therapy Roulette

Dialectical Behavior Therapy (DBT) w/ Sue Baci

January 21, 2021 Michele Baci Season 1 Episode 118
Therapy Roulette
Dialectical Behavior Therapy (DBT) w/ Sue Baci
Show Notes Transcript Chapter Markers

Michele shares that she met with a brand new therapist. She also finished reading the book How to Be a Person in the World by Heather Havrilesky.

Today Michele talks to her mom, Sue Baci, who shares her experience with Dialectical Behavior Therapy (DBT). Sue talks about learning skills to maintain good emotional health, mindfulness, how to compromise, and how she stayed calm during a family emergency. She explains how to avoid “catastrophic thinking,” including anxiety about dwelling the past or in the “what ifs.” They talk about the frustration and difficulty that comes along with diagnosing mental illness.

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Therapy Roulette: Consent to Vent / Trauma disguised as comedy / Therapy Roulette: Consent to Vent / If you don’t have problems, then you’re likely repressing sh*t and you should find a therapist / (Who’s not me)

Hey, everyone, welcome back to a new episode of Therapy Roulette: consent to vent. My name is Michele Baci, I'm your host. And it's still 2021. How many years has this week felt like to you? Every day in the pandemic feels like yours to me. Like, it's so hard to retain short term memory and get excited for whatever's happening next, because it's the same as what just happened. But I don't know, I hope you're getting through these 75 years. One day at a time, like I am, I went to therapy this week, I have a new therapist, my own personal therapist, and all I had to do was answer my phone when she called it's so easy to do remote therapy, I can't get over the simplicity of it. She didn't suggest a video session. So we did a phone session. And she called me I put it on speaker I sat in the car outside. So I could have privacy. And it was so easy to talk to her. She's, she's good. I think she's a good match for me. So first session went well, I'm excited for more. She asked me a lot of questions, which I really appreciated, because I went into the session with the plan, or like kind of an outline of what I wanted to discuss. And I touched on what I wanted to discuss. But then she drew out a lot more for me, and pointed me in a different direction that I like, also wanted to go in anyway. So it became something I wasn't even planning on. And it felt really productive. And she gave me homework, which I really appreciated. Like, she was like journal on this and think about this. And I want you to research this, because we talked a lot about my career and my job. And she gave me a lot of ideas of like, where I could go and how I could grow within the position I'm in or if I want to take a new path in my life, work in some other career. You know, if I wanted to change things up, she was like, why don't you journal on on switching up your path. Mostly, that's a good idea. So I like therapists, good job, my insurance Good job for this suggestion. And I wanted to recommend a book that I just listened to on audiobook. It's called How to be a person in the world by Heather have Valesky. And it's a simple title. It's like a book that is based on an advice column that she writes a dear Polly column. So the whole book is like, listeners or readers right in telling Polly their problem. And then it's Heather giving advice. And she does it in a very sassy, no nonsense tone. She tells it like it is and she gives you her personality. And she gives straight advice I really appreciate. And there's a lot of questions in there that are like basic bitch problems or you know, first world problems, a lot of love or dating problems. But she tells it like it is. And I learned a lot from that book, like the first problem or first couple problems that were examples in the book. I was like, Oh, this is you know, this is funny. This is interesting, but it's like, not that novel to me. And then as the book got more in depth, like a few problems in I was like, Oh my god, I like really love this book. She you know, she encounters a lot of people with like real life shit happening. And she's like, this is what I would do. And this is what I think you should do. And I feel like reading this book saved me a few sessions of therapy in the future because I I learned a lot about like love relationships, about like navigating life and big life moments that might happen like death, or you know, when you have kids or when you have a career move, career change. She covers a lot of that. So I recommend how to be a person in the world by Heather However, leschi and the audio book was great like she was she was funny to listen to. Here's a quote that I really appreciated from the book. Stop being grateful for scraps. Everything good in my life has surged forth from one crucial moment or another. When I said I am not settling for these scraps anymore. I want more than this for myself. I feel like she had a lot of that's the quote. isn't a good she had a lot of good advice about like

not settling, and not accepting circumstances in your life, whether it be your relationship or your job, or your, you know, friendships, whatever, not settling for, like, what it is, if you're not happy with it, but taking the initiative to change things or influence things, so they could be more like what you want or like, the ideal life you want to create for yourself. And I guess it's a self help book, it felt more like a humor book to read. But it does have a self help bend to it. Allah, the genre Therapy Roulette, I love books that are based in real life to like things with real people telling their stories. I find that so interesting. After read more, or memoirs, I want to remind you, my dear listeners, please review Therapy Roulette on the apple podcast app. Or if you listen to it on another app, go ahead and rate review. Please give me five stars if you think I am five star worthy. And if you can leave a review, especially on Apple podcasts. That's how people will find the podcasts. And that's how, if I ever, you know climb to the top of the charts, that's the way to do it. So please leave me a review. All you need is an apple account, which means you just need an email address. And you could literally write a few words and that would be awesome. I would appreciate that so much. Thank you in advance. On today's episode, I talked to my mom, I talked to Sue Baci, and we get into her experience with therapy, which centers around DBT, which is dialectical behavior therapy. She has a lot to say about it. And we have a good conversation. My mom is a joy to talk to you and I hope you enjoy our conversation. Sue Baci!

guest interview / a friend for you / strangers whose issues are relatable / guest interview / They're the voice that's new / this person has problems and they don't mind discussing it, but they still need a therapist / (Who’s not me) 

Welcome back to Therapy Roulette: consent to vent. Today I'm here with my mom Sue. She is a lawyer, a mother of four. She's a wife and she has a little shih tzu named Melody. Mom, welcome to the podcast 

Thank you, Michele. it is wonderful to be with you on this lovely afternoon.

We'll see how the conversation goes but I think we'll have a fun time. I am sure we will.

So I thought just to make it light hearted from the gecko Why don't we spin the wheel and get a random topic to riff riff on and dying to see this wheel Oh knew I get to see it. I always hear it on the podcast. It is quite lovely. It's not in its final form yet but this is what it looks like right now. I've put on some new topics so we'll see what we get

to Atlanta on what you're wearing. Tell us about what you're wearing and why each why you chose this outfit. I actually did not put any thought whatsoever into it just grab the first thing in the draw but it's my typical outfit of a T shirt and yoga pants but this shirt I'm not you can see it as actually significance for the two of us because this is the shirt I bought. It says New York it's just navy blue. It says New York, but I bought it the weekend we were stranded in the city in the huge snowstorm after we went to see that Shakespeare play. You may Blizzard and shut down Penn Station you me and my sister and we ran around in the pouring snowstorm driving snow finally found a hotel because all the trains that as soon as the playlet out and they shut down Penn Station because of the blizzard. I would think it was December like before right before Christmas or something. And when you can remember what year it was several years ago, do you not remember the year but they shut they had to have been like over five years ago, they really shut down Penn Station. So we shut down as I remember as soon as we walked out of our seats, I got a text from my brother friend saying Penn Station shut down you will not be able to get home. So we walked around for a few blocks, found our hotel room. We of course had not packed any clothes to change into so the next morning and the hotel gift shop, I bought this shirt. And then as you remember, they still weren't running the trains the next day and I think we finally got a train at three in the morning. The next night. We saw a second play the second day. So that was quite the adventure. Good man. That was the weekend we saw next to norm Yes, that's right. That's what that's what we saw the next day to kill time. Because it's psychology feeds plates, right? That's right. So that was a very fun weekend. So I always

Do you recall? Yeah, very,

does not happen. Most times like usually Penn Station the subway, they're always reading. Yeah, but that Blizzard knock them out. And then you turned into mom mode. You hightailed it to the hotel you left me and your sister in the dust. Not I was trying to get a room for us. But you booked a hotel room in a busy blizzard. So that's your job. We had to try three or four hotels before we found one that had a room. So I was glad we found something. That's funny. That's the shirt you're wearing. So did you did you buy any clothes to change into that next day? I don't remember. I don't recall buying clothes. I remember we went to a shoe store to get boots. Yes, we I think maybe need a boots or you needed boots. Yeah, yeah, Aunt Mimi needed boots. I I might have needed boots. I mostly remember the snow eating at Junior's diner or your favorite diner? Yes. And seeing the place? Yes, I let you and me me sit there to eat while I stood on the half price ticket line in this. Like, so much wind it was about to blow you over. And I got the tickets to next to normal. And then that show ended and they still didn't have the train running. So we walked down we figured Oh, it's gonna eventually have a train running and we walked down to Penn Station. We spent some time in the waiting room. Yeah, made me go. So let's sit here. This is the waiting area. I don't know. I don't want to sit down. I don't want to sit there and be with all sorts of weird people meaningless No, and totally wait around, maybe goes it's maybe my sister. She goes, it's totally fine. Don't worry, we sit down. within five minutes, one guy starts yelling out.

The Lord Jesus will say you raise the Lord. And then on the guy right next to him goes.

Well, yeah. And I go to meet. See, I told you that none of that stands out in my mind. typical day, I remember that. And then a cop finally came around and goes, if you don't have a ticket, you have to leave. And he got those not narrow dwell types out of the waiting room. And we sat there from I guess it was like 11 at night till three in the morning. That's when the first train less than it went into Great Neck, which was like 40 minutes from where we live in Derry far away on Long Island and had to pick us up at three in the morning. But we finally got home.

So now does that shirt always bring that memory back to you? or it doesn't have to, there was a memory and that's a good example of how when even when things go wrong, it turns out to be like you know, a great memory. It's something like I'll always remember that play and doing that. So it sounds might have bad aspects but Keno is can turn it into like something positive. It's a good outlook on it. Hmm. I think I recall a lot of panic and freak out from you. And maybe it was going on but it all did work out. As it turned out to be quite the wonderful memory. I think when we would have spent the night together in New York in a hotel room

with no feel like I remember you being excited to go back to Jr's diner more than once you were like, Oh, I can get another chicken salad sandwich. So it was like extending a special trip. That's right, we got to see two plays instead of one.

That's funny. It was I've been trying so let me ask you about therapy, what's been your experience with therapy? Are you in it right now or when? When were you most recently in therapy, I was never really technically in therapy, but my therapy experience. And you know, I probably no one really that I knew did therapy when I was growing up, I think I would have helped many people including me, however, my therapy experience is learning as you know, DBT therapy, which is dialectical behavior therapy. And I recommend that to every person, I think they should teach it in every high school, every single person can benefit from it, because it's all about dealing with your emotion. So anyone that has emotions, which is everybody can benefit from it. So whether you have sometimes you have anger, sometimes you have anxiety, sometimes you have depression, sometimes you have any sort of emotional issue. This type of therapy can help. It's about spreading your negative thoughts into more positive ones. Not really, it's not a thinking therapy, like you just described. It's more like learning skills to manage situations. It's a branch off of CBT which is cognitive behavioral therapy. I don't know if it's a branch off of that, like it was all developed by this one person. It's not been around that long. So I think her book was published in 93 1993.

Which is not that long ago. And it's Marsha Linehan, Li ne ha. And she developed it because she went through some real psychological problems growing up, she was in, I guess, a psychiatric hospital as an adolescent is misdiagnosed, and this and that, and she eventually became a psychologist when she grew up, and she developed this. For people like her that have basically, there's nothing really, it's not like you have something that necessarily needs medicine. It's just you have trouble dealing with emotions, and people like that are often mis diagnosed. But she developed this whole set of things. And it has about four sections. And it takes six months to go through the whole thing. But one section is all on mindfulness. One section is all on dealing with your emotions, then there's another section on dealing with personal relationships, like interpersonal relationships. And another module is I think, distress tolerance, like dealing with stressful situations. But it's like, fantastic. all applicable to everybody in this it is it's like,

I really think they should teach it in high school, because it's so helpful. It's just a way of thinking about things and using these different skills. To the long the long list of things we should teach in high school.

Yes, I can tell you my favorite skills that I've learned from it, if you want to know or Sure. Well, I was gonna say, from me doing a brief Google search, because I've heard you talk about it before but never in depth. And from doing a Google search, it seems like it's about reframing, like the dialect that you're telling yourself, like the thought patterns or the negativity or whatever, like, self harm inducing talk, like reframing that to make it more manageable? Well, that's part of it, but it's giving you skills to manage it. So one whole basic theme going through the whole thing is that emotions are good, they're positive, it's you shouldn't feel there's something wrong with you, because you're emotional. Or maybe you're more emotional than someone else. There's absolutely nothing. Like that's not a bad thing you shouldn't be someone shouldn't say, Oh, you're so emotional. And if you weren't emotional people, we need people who are emotional, like we wouldn't have the art we have or the plays we have or the movies we have that people didn't feel, or the you know, political situations, if people didn't feel emotion and want to correct Ron at all just turn into robots. No, you need emotion, but it's trying to. So emotions are good, it's good to have emotions. But it's how to manage those emotions. So a lot of some people and some people can manage their emotions more easily than others, some people have trouble doing it. So this is for people that might need help managing their motion. So give you a bit of skills for doing that.

But never to make you think, you know, there's anything wrong with being emotional. So it's it's a positive thing, but you want to have management skills to manage them. So I thought that I would try teaching you and my sister and your sisters, I'm going to go once a week and you're going to lead a therapy session. Yes, I'm gonna start I'm gonna give you one of the skills every way. It's takes six months to go through the whole thing. But I thought I would try this. You've, you've gone through the program yourself. Do you think you have all those skills? Did you acquire them after the six months? Yeah, so I have been,

like I try. I tried to teach the same course to like some other people when they were having trouble with emotional issues. So I kind of reinforced it in myself by doing that. And I really think I have it just now ingrained in my system. Because when dad was going through all his things he recently went through we had heart surgery, and had

on Thanksgiving week, he was in the hospital for 12 days, as you know, wound up with you know, feeling fine the day before and all of a sudden now he needs triple bypass surgery, which no one expected. And throughout that whole thing. I never had one minute of anxiety, not one second of one or you were eerily calm the whole time. I was basically spending my time trying to calm down like you guys, dads, you know, siblings, Mimi, you know, my sister, like everyone was so full of anxiety and worry and I was thinking to myself, does this mean I don't care like is there something wrong with me?

was so calm. And then I realized it must be because I have totally absorbed this way of thinking these DBT skills, and mindfulness and problem solving and really practicing mindfulness and dealing with the present situation, rather than saying, What if this happens? What if things go worse? You know, you're not jumping to the next conclusion. Yeah, that's one of the there's three favorite techniques of this whole therapy that I are my favorite ones. And that's one of them. Where is when you have an emotional issue or something like dad's getting sick and his operation? So instead of worrying, well, you know, what, if they can fix it? Or what if, what if, what if, like, you just put all that thought about the problem into problem solving, solving the problem instead of worrying about the problem itself and stressing over that you focus on well, and so what's the way to solve it is to have this operation. So there was never any question. That's, you know, the way to go and this and that. So that problem solving is one of the techniques like instead of stressing on the problem itself, put all your focus on, how do I solve the problem? And you're supposed to think of, you know, a couple different ways, from where you are now, like, what are you actually in control of now? Yeah, and you'd say, get a couple of, you know, solutions, then you try this solution. If it doesn't work, then you congratulate yourself for trying it. And maybe you try a different solution. But you, you focus on how do I solve it instead of just This is the worst problem, this is terrible? What's going to happen? Now, like, what can I do to fix it, that was one of the techniques. The other big technique, which I think helps tremendously, is practicing mindfulness, which is a big part of DBT therapy. There's the whole module on it, which takes several weeks. But the whole concept, the basic concept is, think about today, not bring if your mind goes towards the future, bring it back to the present. So and if it goes to the past, bring it back to the present, like so much anxiety and worry is stressing about what's going to happen in the future? Or what's going to happen. What happened in the past, oh, should I have done this? I should have done this, I should have did this wrong? What if I had done that? Or like the future? What what, but if you just think of what what's right now, right now is, like, an example would be

the current virus situation with COVID, you know, so you could be stressing about the future, we'll never be able to go out to a restaurant again, we're never going to get the vaccine. It's so well, instead of thinking of all those future possibilities, think about right now, I'm fine. I'm, I'm healthy, I'm, I have enough food to eat, I'm in a nice house, you know, I have my family around me. And I, right now, at this very moment that we're talking together, I'm totally, there's nothing wrong. So when my mind drifts to the future, you're supposed to know, you just concentrate on present day, this singular moment right now. And that's called Mindfulness. And when you go through the therapy, it's such a big part of the therapy that for every week, for every session, the way they would start, each session is a mindfulness exercise, to try and train your mind to come back to the present. So they would pick something, it could be anything like it could be a light fixture in the room, or you could be deciding to color with the color with a crayon or you think of that tinge whatever it is, feel or see, you know, it doesn't have to be sound that you feel a seal doesn't have to be something tangible. It could be thinking whatever it is, like they would pick say it was

a certain song, you could think about the song, but you could and they would put on a timer, it was five minute timer. And you could if the song was the particular thing, you could only think about that any aspect of it, but only that for five minutes. And if your mind drifts to Well, what am I going to do later today? Or do try and bring your mind back to note only my mind can only have thoughts of that song. And it's very hard to do in our current age. So we would have this mindfulness exercise, it's to train your mind to be able to stick in the present. And we would set a timer when the timer goes off, they would go around the room and ask each person was you were you able to stay focused or did your mind drift to the future or the past? If so, how did you bring it back to the present? So sometimes, like, you know, and that's a great training exercise because that's what

You have to do you have to shut out thoughts of the future, when in this is only when you start feeling emotional or anxious or like any sort of anger or anxiety, that's when you try, alright, I'm just gonna say, Well, what how what's happening right this second nap, and instead of worrying about the future, so you can do it like, and it just calms you down. That's one of the parts about the mind. So mindfulness form of meditation, it's like meditation, but it's not, it's not that you're, that's the what I was talking about was a training technique to train your mind to be able to do it. But the actual practice of it, it's not so much meditating, it's just

shutting out thoughts of the future, and thoughts of the past, when you feel yourself getting overwhelmed, or emotional or anxious about a particular situation. So it's not so much meditating, I guess it's just focusing in the present and being present, or whatever. But that's

the way I've been trying to meditate as a very novice, meditator is just, you know, turning off my phone, and giving myself five minutes to just like, you know, be in the moment, right, focusing on the present, or, you know, thinking about something in particular, but just not being distracted by anything. Yeah, well, that's hard to do. Yeah, that's, I think there's a whole section on distress tolerance, I think that's what it's called. But that's kind of figuring out ways that calm you, like, if you like listening to music, or meditation, or you like taking a walk or exercise, whatever calms you down from an emotional situation is also good. Like, there's all these different skills like, and that's part of it, too, and the other. So I think my three favorite skills that I learned from this whole thing is the problem solving technique, and the mindfulness training, focus on the present. And the third one was validation. So to always see a situation from also the other person's point of view, and don't, to think without judgment, when you're having a argument or dispute about something, don't just assume that you're bright. So you because if you do that, you will never give the other person a chance to really hear their thoughts and their point of view. And the same subject can be looked at two different ways, and both points can be valid. That's called the dialectical. So dialectical means you can have two ways of looking at something, and neither one is right or wrong. So when they try and teach validation, it doesn't mean you agree with the other person, it just means that you try and see their point of view. And that calms you down. Because when you're thinking about something, and you're thinking, Oh, that that's ridiculous, and you don't understand. But if you open your mind to seeing it from the other person's point of view, it makes you comments. Oh, I guess I could have looked at it that way. And that's another way to look at doesn't mean you agree with them. But you validate that they have a valid thought. Yeah, it's also a very hard technique to put into practice, because I always think I'm right. And then Joseph always thinks he's right. So we get into a lot of head butting arguments, yes. Because we're both very confident we are the right one in the situation. But as you said, we could be partially right. It sounds like neither of you are practicing validation. Because you're thinking with juggler working on it, no, but you think and he does that, too. So when I say you have to think non judgmentally if you come into the conversation with your opinion, that only you are right, and there's no other valid points of view, that you're never gonna really have a true exchange of ideas. So you have to you have to listen to each other without the judgment. overlay of it, you know, and that's one of the things one of the skills they try and teach in this course, to think without judgment and and think non judgmental, like, that's super important. And how do you do that? It's like, it's so what's, give me an example of something you disagree on the two of you, or, like, six are not even disagreeing with Joseph, but like, I think I'm better than a lot of people automatically, like I always think like, Oh, no, I'm doing it the right way. That person's doing it the wrong way. I always say constantly judging people subconsciously. Alright, so when you say doing it, what is give me a particular example doing like going about life the wrong way, like, oh, that person has a job that's gonna make them miserable. And, you know, I'm I'm not following that path. I'm doing it the smarter way. Right. So, I mean, you could think I just judge others.

people's life choices. And I would like so what you should do is then try and see it from their point of view, what why did they pick that job? In that example? You're saying they're picked, they're picking the wrong job? So did they have a reason for it? Maybe it's a very good salary, or maybe it brings job security. Maybe they got health benefits from that job like, yeah, yeah, Toby them from the beginning, like they started working at the hotdog stand, because they just love hot dogs. And they didn't realize how hard the job would be in the long run. Like in any type of situation, try and see it, not just from your point of view, and understand someone else's point of view. And

it can bring down the emotion of the whole thing. Because a lot of times, you just assume your rightness, no other way to look at it. And that, of course, makes you angry when someone else isn't doing what you feel they should be doing. Because you've already decided, there's no other way to think about it. But there usually always is. And like I said, it doesn't mean, you have to say that they are right, or you're right. And

another technique they teach is called the middle path, like when you're trying to, you know, you want to do something certain way and the other person wants to do it a certain way. Well, the middle path is not just to do it your way or the other way. But to find a solution that honors a little bit of each person's issues. So an example they gave in the therapy when we were doing it was, you know, the parent says to their kid, you got to be home by 11 from the party, because you know, they're worried things could happen isn't that they don't want them out too late. And the kid goes, Oh, you're ruining my life. Nothing happens till like two in the morning, you know, and I want to stay out and this and that. So you have two different points of view, each person thinks they're right. So how do you solve that problem? Well, you could come to some, you know, compromise that, you know, they come home somewhere in between that time, they probably disown your kid and emancipate yourself from the parent.

No, but I mean, that wasn't the greatest, fastest, most efficient solution.

No, you pick a solution that doesn't on or just your point of view. But in other words, you you know, you allow some point of the other person to be honored. But and that's how you trying to find a middle you make a compromise. It's a compromise, but not a compromise. It's a compromise that has to honor something of each person's wishes. And so they don't get everything they want it but they get some part of it, basically. And that's called the middle path. But the validation to me is the mindfulness thing. The problem solving and the validation are the three greatest things I learned in that whole thing. But I think the whole therapy, it really has just become so I guess ingrained in me because I didn't even have to think to put it into practice. When he was going dad was going through all his operation and all these issues. Like I went to work the day of the operation. And I was I know cuz we were texting our extended family and you were like, well, I'm a work so I I'm not at the hospital right now. But I'll let you know in like 10 hours, everyone, what are you talking about? Yeah, but you were able to go about your day, easily. With a bunch of stressors going on dad is in the hospital, it's Thanksgiving Coronavirus, is raging and you seems like it was a normal day for you. I really had they would text me every few hours from the hospital. Like the nurse would say, oh, now he's, he's got he's off the heart lung machine. Like at each stage, they would send you update and I would send the little updates to the family. But I was able to totally concentrate and you know, do whatever I was doing at work and whereas I think if I had if this had happened years before I ever had this there I would have been you know, just a nervous wreck about it and not able to eat and or have I would have had difficulty concentrating. But I didn't have any of those issues. So it really does work is what I'm trying to say. It becomes in no I just sang it works like it's a workable thing like you think oh you know it can't work. No, it does work. So I and I think so what do you get? What do you think you were like, you know, um, what do you think you were like before the therapy? I would definitely if something stressful happened that's what would I would have difficulty concentrating. I would worry a bag I would think about what happens in the future if this or that happened. And total different way of handling stressful things because I

stressful things happen like with you guys when one of you guys would get sick. When Angela fell member, she fell three floors down. She's two years old in the hospital parking lot. And I was like a basket case. But you know. So now I think I would do filling in all the what ifs? Like, what if something worse happens? What if, you know, you're just imagining that we're really injured? Yeah, that's, that's another technique like to avoid catastrophic thinking. So that means, instead of imagining the worst has happened, well, what are alternative thoughts? What is more likely it to be Oh, it's more likely Everything will be alright. And this and that. And then, you know, try and avoid, because catastrophic thinking is just a negative thinking pattern, you know, and that's another part of the whole thing to, to not think like that. Yeah, I just find that very hard to do. It is hard to do. It's not easy. But if you practice and you That's why I'm going to start teaching you and me, me, and

anyone else that wants you guys want to know, I figured one,

two or three minutes, like once a week to buy cheese, you will see sessions coming live up soon. Only, you have to be a select member of the group to Okay, party. Listen, only. That's right. Only the VIPs get this, I think what you're suggesting people can learn about CBT therapy from the internet from getting it I was gonna say I think she I know, I'm almost 100% sure she has. I know she has a book bag, I'm sure this and they, it's like a set of you know, you you learn whatever the skill is that we can then there's an exercise to practice during the week. That's that whole thing of the whole session that you can get, I think anywhere, it's just and you could teach yourself, or you could of course, go and you know, pay for therapists, which would be the best of all worlds, but not everyone can afford that. But you know, if you ever have the opportunity to have to learn that I would any I would take advantage of it. It's so worth Yeah. Or if you have good insurance, it's very affordable. Through insurance, you can really help. So when you were growing up what what was like your understanding of therapy? Did anyone go through it or anyone talk about it? no one talked about it. No one I knew went through it, I think right up in like the 70s 60s. Yeah. And I think it It could have helped a lot of people but because was it more

portrayed in film like you would get a lobotomy or be like, wrapped up in a straight jacket? If you admitted you had a mental disorder? I mean, like I said, no one really, like now it's so openly discussed. There's not like a stigma to it or anything, but no one talked about it. Like, like I said, I didn't know anyone that I knew that was in therapy, like growing up and no one in high school, no one in grade school. And if they were they certainly didn't discuss it, because you know, no, and a lot of people went through things that needed therapy, no one recognized that it was a mental thing. Like, you know, how people

talk about anorexia now or you know, issues like that, that there's even disorder awareness that didn't have a name when I was growing up, like no one knew. That's what it was. They thought it was a physical thing when it's really a mental thing. You know? Yeah. I wonder when the DS What is it the DSM five, when that came out?

As a big book of psychology? I don't know whether it's an explanation. Yeah, I don't know when that came out. But

I think it was really popularized, because really rich people are really sick people were getting some kind of psychological treatment back in the day, but it was, you know, a marginalized amount of people. Yeah, I think it's still a very difficult

area, because it's not a clean, clear cut thing. That's what I meant to say clear cut, like, if you have strep throat, it can be diagnosed with a test and then you know, the exact medicine for strep throat, like with mental issues. It's not always so clear exactly what you have, or what is the right treatment. And it's I think there's a lot of misdiagnosis, mis diagnosis out there. And that's unfortunate, but that's because then there's good and bad doctors to get through with a doctor who's not even putting in the time to really get you the proper diagnosis. Yeah, but I think a lot of people are put on medicine that don't need it, like, you know, antidepressants or anti anxiety pills, and really, they just needed DBT therapy.

Yeah, there are there are, it's more a hippie way to go about it nothing wrong if you do need mess, I'm not trying to say that and some mental disorders clear like if you have true schizophrenia or bipolar or something like that they do have very good medicines for but often people are diagnosed bipolar. And they're not. I think that's what happened to Marsha Linehan. She was Miss diagnosed, maybe it was that it was whatever it was, it was wrong. And all she had really was borderline personality disorder, which is not something you treat with medicine, you cheat. Now with this type of therapy, but people, especially kids going through high school, or adolescence, or just need help managing their emotions. And immediately they're put on like an antidepressant or an anti anxiety pill, which has so many side effects, he's makes you nauseous, and this and that, and it makes you sleepy. And if you don't really need it, you shouldn't be hard. Going through that as a kid, when you're, you know, so susceptible. It's like, you're still developing your brain. So it's hard to perfect cocktail of drugs when you're a little kid. Yeah. And what I'm saying is, like so many psychiatrists just, oh, they just want to prescribe a medicine. But a lot of their job is not with filling out the prescription pad. Yeah. So there's lots of alternatives to taking medicine. But if you do need medicine, I'm not at all against it. I think that's a good thing. But I just think, you know, you need the proper diagnosis. And it's hard to diagnose mental issues. It's not like a physical Yeah. It's a journey full of twists and turns. I'm reading a book about this comedian who has bipolar and just like his journey of getting the right diagnosis and getting the right cocktail of drugs and how he had good doctors and bad doctors. And he's like, trying to, you know, talk to the people through the book. Like, if you think you have bipolar, it's gonna be a hard road to figure out how to treat that. Yeah, that's a very difficult thing. And what we see misdiagnosed as having Well, I don't think he was diagnosed for he wasn't dying for like, 30 something years. And then he realized, like, he's hugely self destructive. I think his name is Paul Jones, what the book is called the up and down life, but he he had to get himself to like a general doctor and say, Hey, I'm going crazy. What do you think's wrong with me? Yeah, wasn't that the case with Carrie Fisher, maybe had bipolar, and I think was misdiagnosed or not diagnosed for many, many years. And then she went public with the whole thing to try and encourage people to talk about it and not keep it to themselves and everything. Yeah, cuz if you're going through a manic

phase, you could be really self destructive. Yes. And then when you go through the, because you have very, very lows of being extremely depressed. And then those very, very highs and yeah, it's a very, and they have medicine now to try and keep you at an even keel. So you don't get those extremes. But if you're not, if you're not having any treatment that yeah, it's very difficult.

Yeah, it's about raising awareness and encouraging people to like, be persistent enough to find the right diagnosis, find the right doctors for them, until you feel like you're actually getting help. Yeah, people should never keep issues like that to themselves. That's one of the big things to always keep in mind. If you're feeling anxiety, you're feeling depressed, and there's nothing wrong with telling someone about it, and you should tell someone about it and keeping it inside is just going to make it worse, and you won't get help. And there's no shame in saying that you suffer from anxiety or depression. That's, that's absolutely fine. It emotions are positive, I think good anxiety and depression, they're, they're no big deal. Like they're, they can be, you know, they can miss up. They, they can be a big deal, but they need to be, you need to be able to, it's common for me to say I have depression and anxiety and find a bunch of people in my circle who are like, Oh, me too, like it's it's much more common than you might think. But it's good to admit that that was my point. Like, don't keep it inside. Like it's very positive to say, Yeah, I have that issue, whatever. Because then you can try and figure out how to deal with it. That's the whole thing. You want to be able to manage your emotions and not have them be destructive or be negative in your life. Because emotions are positive. It's good to be emotional.

Yeah, which I'm coming to terms with because I used to never express emotions. Yes, so that that makes them just boil up and explode when you keep everything inside. So and I don't think stress them. How do you think would

Growing up, like if you had said to your parents, I want to try out therapy, what do you think their reaction would have been? They would have been fine with it. They were always very supportive and always wanting to help. And you know, if you ever had a problem, they were very supportive parents. It's even in the 60s. Yeah. Like, they would never say, oh, deal with it yourself. They weren't that type of person. But I don't think I would have known to even ask for that. I just, I didn't know when new therapy was an option for anything like at least I did. When I was growing. I think it was even on TV. Really? Yeah, I don't think it was ever discussed or anything. And I don't think my parents would have thought of it as a choice. You know, if I, if I said anything mind blowing to think like no one. Really use this resource. Until very recently. Yeah, it is. It is. Yeah. And how did people deal? How did they grow up? Keeping everything inside that? You know, just it just created generational trauma for their ancestors to deal with? That's right.

Now we're all dealing with it for them? Yeah, I think it's a much healthier, healthier

set of, you know, societies much healthier now talking about mental issues than it ever was. Which is,

yeah, I think you could talk about it in the way like, You're out. You're talking about it too much. But it's better to talk about it in some respects than to keep it locked inside. Like you said, like, you know, I always watch the today show every morning when I'm getting ready for work. So I know if you know anyone on the Today Show, but Carson Daly diverted him to be one of the MTV original MTV hosts. He hosted TRL Yes, TRL. Right. So he's one of the hosts the regular host. And he was had a whole segment once about how he had severe anxiety issues for years and years and never told anybody, because he just felt you shouldn't say anything. It was just something you had to just deal with it. And he said, Then one day, he was talking to his friends and saying, Oh, you know, I feel this way in that way. And the friend said, you know, you have an anxiety disorder. And he goes, I do. And then he sought help for it. And he said, it's he's so much better now. And he's always trying to be open about it, and then tell people about it so that they do seek help and everything. So there's lots of major like, stars and people like the comedian you're reading about and all that. Yeah. You know, or opening up about issues to get other people to feel there's nothing wrong with that you have this it just means you need a little help to manage it. Right. representation matters. And it's good when people on the platform speak out about their own issues. Yeah, exactly. Cuz MPs Oh, if he if he has it, and he's on TV, then it's can't be it. They're all with me. You know? Yeah, I think a lot of successful people have crippling anxiety because anxiety makes you work really hard. It makes you be a perfectionist. It makes you like, you know, do a lot of things. Someone who's much more calm might not do so I can help you in certain ways. Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, like, you know, you need to have really strong emotions. I think the creative world people that are creative like you, you have to be very emotional to express your creativity, you know, so yes, it makes you susceptible to the climb to the emotional your bubble, sell your bruises.

Well, I think we've answered a lot of questions about CBT Do you want to spin the wheel? I love the wheel. Did we spin the wheel though? Oh, yes, we did. One one started out I'm happy with more wheel sure brain started out with the wheel. But I thought we usually end on it too. So yes, I love the wheel. I think it's where did you get that wheel on Amazon? on Amazon. I wanted to make one with Joseph's 3d printer but we that we haven't gotten around to it so I'm gonna fries Joseph hasn't made one because he makes everything under the sun. He's so talented. I think he's getting lazy. He was like Amazon's fine.

Double spend. We could spend probably a couple times I'll let you know what Atlanta I know other things to do today. Go ahead. Is this giving you flashbacks to Atlantic City? It does.

My mom loves to go to Atlantic City. Oh no, dad, dad. I want to correct that statement. I'm just a follow I know once the virus has gone that's the first place to have you will be first place he wants to go. I have many other places I'd like to go. Like where like Quebec. I've been suggesting Cooperman always wanted to go to Quebec and dad has zero interest unless there's a casino there which I highly doubt I'll go to Quebec. I want to go there. So let's go there. brush up on my French Yes.

Lauren's landed on superpower if you could have any superpower, what would you choose? And why? I would choose the power to go back in time. I could fix and do a few things differently that I think, you know, would have been better choices to make. That's the power you choose. Yes, that's a great power. What's your What do you think that's a good power? That seems totally counterintuitive to DBT therapy? What is wrong with that power? That's a great thing. So I I'm going to correct some things that I would have done differently. What are you trying to correct? Well, I don't want to go into

things with your children or things of yourself things with my children, I would say that I should have maybe done differently. Just don't have children. I didn't say that. What What do you put in this ridiculous statement? You know, I'm not advocating that. I'm just trying to guess you want me to have like super power. That's the power I want. So please deliver that when they become available. Okay, is it with all your children you're trying to fix? Or just a few of them getting too in depth with that question?

Just I'm gonna throw back at carrots in there. He's coming out with by Patras recipe, you can throw a bag of carrots in if you want. That's what that time was for. Sorry, Michelle.

It's okay. All right. Well, we will give you another question. Your question I would say you should think of a different superpower. If I were you. That's the past to go back in time is fantastic, man. I would love it. Don't you love your kids the way they are and who you are? No, I'm a fan of the presence that I did wrong that would have saved Well, I feel I should have made a different choice on certain things. And it would have saved a lot of trauma is sent us to a different ethnic school. No, that is not at all. What I'm talking about. All right. All right. I won't probe you any further. But I would say focus on the present. DBT mom DBT. All right, I want the power to fly.

No. Okay, let me give you another spinning landed on superpower again. This thing really wants me to have a different superpower. No, it's just a cheap thing from Amazon. That's why. Okay, I like this question. I've been thinking about this a lot and describe your perfect day. My perfect day, well would involve sitting in the backyard on a nice day with my cup of tea and reading a book. Is it the winter? I can't do that. And

that's why my perfect day has to be in the spring or the summer. So it's spring or summer in New York, backyard cup of tea said yes, having my tea while I'm outside reading a book like I love to read. Well, I think the whole process and ceremony of having a cup of tea is relaxing in and of itself. And I really find that to be very for me very relaxing. But to make it super fantastic, relaxing, relaxation to be able to read for the relaxation while you're having a cup of tea. Are you in a shade and I'm okay doing that in the house in the winter. But to make it spectacular, I being outside I love it. And of course I'm in the shade because I do not like sun because Sun is bad for you. So I never sit in the sun. I always going out for like some filtered shade filtered sunlight, and some fresh air. It's just sad just being outside with a cup of tea in a book to me. I just think that's the ultimate

low bar. Things I felt like well I think that's accurate because when I think of my perfect day, I think enjoying my coffee, you know, in a quiet setting like nothing else is going on. You get to actually just like sit and drink coffee. Yeah, I find that super relaxing just to sit and read but I love to do that with a cup of tea and to be outside. So what are you reading? And what kind of tea Are you drinking? With all tea I always just regular Lipton I really just like regular Lipton tea with no sugar. And with Mel a lot of milk. I like a lot of milk. Yes, it's probably more milk than there is tea in there, but a significant amount of milk. So it's a tea latte. Okay, if you want to call it that.

And I'm reading what am I reading you read like I my favorite type of thing to read, I guess any court sort of historical fiction or the book about Hamilton? Well, that's not historic. That was nonfiction but I enjoyed that. But my favorite type of thing is historical. I like everything to read, but I love like, what's that show Outlander? Those books?

Is that historical fiction? That's historical fiction with a romantic you know

involvement like I love I don't know what the name maybe it's romantics historical fiction but that type of thing is my favorite type of thing to read. But I read it anything and everything. And is your perfect day. That all day or DD something else?

Well, if you want to throw in to make it absolutely perfect. Yes. I don't see how you could put this in with it. But you know, I love going to see Broadway plays like a musical. But I guess I could do that in the evening.

I'll start with a tea outside with the book. And then you go see a What's it called? It's an evening show.

Well, it would just be the evening, the evening show. Yeah, it's not a name for it. Like it's not there's not an opposite to the matinee. I don't think so. But the thing with that is, I don't know if it would be truly relaxing because you have to deal with getting into the city and taking the train. And then it's all like you lived in Hell's Kitchen next to the Broadway theater and you had a backyard in the city. I think I'd want to live in the city. Because no, I would, that would not be relaxing to me because it's too noisy. It's too dirty. Or what if I hadn't, I love the entire city. You had an Uber scheduled to drive you to the city so you don't have to worry about the train, and might be worrying about the Uber driver and that they're terrible driver and they might get me in an accident. Like I don't like to be driven by other people. I would have to I don't want to drive myself because then you're in traffic with the train is better. I have to take the train. But I think I'd love seeing Broadway shows. That's one of my favorite things to do. So I would probably throw that in, but maybe not on the same day.

So maybe your perfect day is being stranded in the city because of a sandstorm to know how to be there. No a sandstorm. Do you like the hotter weather? Okay, I don't know where you're heading toward in the city. Where do you think I live in New York City for a spring or summer day? You have a backyard available? and Broadway is right there. That sounds perfect.

Well, I think it's a good mental exercise to plan out your perfect eggs. And you can try to achieve that more often. Yes, it's very calming, and your perfect day with the tee and the backyard. That's very simple. Yes, that's why I figured that's all I needed, you know. But I do have my tickets for my next show. It's now three scheduled for April of 2022. So I'm looking forward to it. What show is that I had bought it for my special birthday that was happening this year. And I was supposed to see this show December 19. of this year, and it's The Music Man with Hugh Jackman. Oh, it's the music man. I love that. Those songs and everything that I love. I think he's so talented. So I just had to get tickets. So I said, Oh, that'll be a great way to celebrate my birthday. And then of course, with the pandemic, they first rescheduled it this year, and now they've put it off till 2022. But it was supposed to be in 2019. But oh, wait, no, I'm sorry. 2020 it was supposed to be Yeah, I'm mixing it up. Yes. Because it's not going to be here. They're gonna 2020 scheduling it until we know for sure. Don't say that man. I don't see why they can't bring Broadway back with everyone wearing masks, I think that would be fine. You just sit in the audience. And you will just given given what's going on in Los Angeles right now. I don't think we should be doing indoor events. But once we get a better grasp on things, I think it would be perfectly safe to wear a mask from your scientific point of view. No, it's not. It's not my made up. But every that's what they say they keep wearing the mask. Well, it's just that we can't. I think the problem is we can't trust people to actually follow rules. And that's why we keep as Americans we keep having these problems. That is probably true. Yes, yes. All right. Let's give you one more spin before we let you go. All right. Can I ask you what your perfect thing is? Or you can only ask me.

I've only thought about it into the morning like you where it's like, oh, I have my coffee and I maybe get to write in my gratitude journal to like plan out my day. And I don't have anything else to do. I just, you know, I get to set my own day. Oh, yeah. That sounds like about what my thoughts work. What I think I think drinking coffee makes me more anxious. But I needed to wake up. Switch to tea. It's less caffeine. Now is not the time to switch to tea mom. Now is not the time. Okay, a recent happy memory. Reset. Oh, that's so easy. When dad's operation was over, and he came out of it successful. So that was very happy. I was very happy that day. How are you feeling? Remember? 30th? How are you feeling when he

found out it was all successful. Yes, I was very happy. I was very happy. very relieved, or you weren't even worried. I was not worried. I was just very happy that everything went smoothly. It was a success. You know, how did how did you celebrate the moment and you just stand six feet apart and say, good job. Well, he was in the hospital, I was home. But, you know, I went to see him after it was over, they led me in a half an hour after he came out of the surgery room, which I was shocked. He was now then in the ICU, which is just a little cubicle, you know, we just one bed and the one nurse, and they let me stand right next to him. And he was still under the anesthesia with the breathing tube, and all that. But so then they said they would, he wouldn't be out of anesthesia probably till 11. That night, this was like, seven at night. And so a few hours later, so that, you know, the visiting hours are over at eight. So I had to leave at eight. But, but I knew that I had gone well, the doctors, they came out and talked to me. And he said everything went perfect. And so that was very good to hear. And then they called me like at 11 after they got the breathing too bad. So it was all just I didn't celebrate or anything. But I was very, very happy to hear all that good news. So definitely, yeah, a much happier moment amidst a lot of darkness. Yes, yes, very happy. That sounds like your, your knowledge of DBT really helped you navigate that whole experience of being in the hospital in the first place. Definitely. And the surprising thing to me was I didn't have to consciously think abusing the skills like Oh, I should train my mind. It just was so natural. It just was automatic. And like I was questioning myself, I don't I care. Like why am I not worried? Why am I not feeling anxiety? And then I said, Oh, it's because I'm just, I'm doing automatically doing problem solving. That's what I'm doing. And I'm automatically doing mindfulness without having to think about doing it. So I think you're just what it was a product that DBT works. Yeah, well, I like I said, I've gone over it so many times trying to help other people learn the skill. So it probably has now been ingrained in my brain. Mm hmm. But it does get it definitely works. Definitely I am open to learning. I think it can be very helpful. Just to get out of negative thought patterns and negative thoughts too much anxiety. Yes, it really helps if you're suffering from anxiety it this is the perfect thing for it. But it does take six miles sign up. Okay, you're signed up. I mean, it's quarantine six months means nothing. That's true. That's true. All right. I'll talk to you off the podcast and give you your first instruction. All right. Well, Mama was so nice talking to you. And I know you. I will definitely talk to you again soon. So thank you for coming on. Yes. And thank you for having me. This was delightful. And I love that you have accomplished your creative endeavor with this podcast. Very proud of you. And it's very enjoyable. I like you for validating me. I love listening. Everyone should sign up and become a member. It leave us a review enjoyable. Yes, yes. Thank you for coming on. We'll see you. Goodbye. Adios. Adios.

We'll talk again soon. This has been Therapy Roulette: consent to vent. If you liked this episode, be sure to subscribe. leave a review if you can and tell your friends. I'll be back with a new episode next Thursday.

Therapy Roulette: Consent to Vent / Trauma disguised as comedy / Therapy Roulette: Consent to Vent / If you don’t have problems, then you’re likely repressing sh*t and you should find a therapist / (Who’s not me)


Intro - New Therapist, Book Recommendation
Interview w/ Sue Baci